[SERGIO]: LITTLE MONICA WAS READY FOR BED. SHE WAITS HALF BENEATH THE BLANKET. MAMA'S GONNA TALK HER IN, AS SHE ALWAYS DOES. BUT THEN, MONICA HEARS SCREAMS OUTSIDE HER WINDOW. A MAN YELLING, OH GOD, PLEASE SOMEBODY HELP ME. THE FULL WEIGHT OF THOSE WORDS CAN'T SINK INTO HER YOUNG MIND, BUT SHE GOES TO THE WINDOW ANYWAY. DOWN BELOW WHERE THE CARS ARE PARKED IS A MAN FALLING TO THE FLOOR, CLUTCHING HIS CHEST. HER EYE IS CAUGHT BY ANOTHER BLUR, A DIFFERENT MAN RUNNING AWAY OUT OF THE ALLEY. MAMA'S STANDING NEXT TO HER NOW, VERY STILL. SHE DIDN'T HEAR HER COME IN, BUT MONICA KNOWS THAT SHE SAW THE SAME THING. THE MAN BELOW IS MOANING IN PAIN, A BARKING DOG IS GETTING CLOSER, A DARK PUDDLE GROWS BENEATH THE MAN. THIS IS THE CASE OF THE MURDER OF A HOLLYWOOD HEARTTHROB, SAL MINEO, THE SWITCHBLADE KID. HELLO, EVERYBODY. WELCOME TO YOUR’E NEXT PODCAST.

[EMILIO]: HELLO, GUYS. I'M EMILIO.

[SERGIO]: AND I AM SERGIO.

[EMILIO]: YOU KNOW WHAT? I DON'T MEAN TO SAY GUYS, I SHOULD SAY Y'ALL. I DON'T WANT TO... HI, EVERYONE.

[SERGIO]: HELLO, GOOD PEOPLE.

[EMILIO]: FELLOW OZ-IANS, SINCE WE'RE ALL APPROACHING THIS PART.

[SERGIO]: FELLOW OZ-IANS.

[EMILIO]: WELCOME TO EPISODE 20. THIS IS A CASE OF SAL MINEO, AS YOU JUST HEARD. HOPE YOU'RE ALL DOING GREAT. IT'S GETTING COLD HERE IN CHICAGO.

[SERGIO]: IT'S ALSO A CRAZY FULL MOON.

[EMILIO]: OH, MY GOD. LAST NIGHT AND TODAY HAVE BEEN FUCKING NUTS.

[SERGIO]: IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE BIGGEST FULL MOON OF THE YEAR. THE MOON IS AS CLOSE AS IT'S EVER GOING TO BE TO THE EARTH.

[EMILIO]: IT NEEDS TO BACK OFF, LIKE, PRONTO.

[SERGIO]: WE DON'T NEED THE ENERGY RIGHT NOW, SIR. THE WORLD IS MAD ENOUGH AS IT IS. TODAY, WE'LL BE EXPLORING THE CASE OF SAL MINEO, A HOLLYWOOD ACTOR WHO WAS MURDERED IN WHAT WAS CALLED A ROBBERY GONE BAD. SAL MINEO COMES FROM A LARGE NEW YORK SICILIAN FAMILY. HE WAS BORN JANUARY 10TH, 1939. HE WAS VERY PROUD OF HIS HERITAGE AND HE REFUSED TO CHANGE HIS NAME FOR STARDOM, WHICH IS AMAZING. AGAIN, ESPECIALLY FOR THE TIME, HE JUST KEPT DOING THIS HIS ENTIRE LIFE. HE STARTED HIS CAREER EARLY AS A CHILD ACTOR IN BROADWAY PRODUCTIONS LIKE THE KING AND I AND THE ROSE TATTOO. ALREADY SHOWING GREAT TALENT, BUT THE EARLY SUCCESS CAME WITH PRESSURE. HIS MOTHER JOSEPHINE QUICKLY BECAME BOTH HIS MANAGER AND THE GATEKEEPER. SHE HANDLED HIS CONTRACTS, TOOK HIS PAYCHECKS, AND OFTEN PUSHED HIM INTO ROLES HE DIDN'T WANT. ANYTHING THAT WOULD KEEP THE FAMILY COMFORTABLE. SHE'S A CLASSIC MOMAGER. MOMAGER. SAL LATER TOLD HIS FRIENDS THAT HE FELT LIKE A PRODUCT RATHER THAN A SON. AND WHEN HE TRIED TO RESIST OR PURSUE MORE SERIOUS ACTING WORK, SHE REMINDED HIM OF THE MOUTH HE HAS TO FEED BACK IN THE BRONX, WHICH IS HORRIBLE. AND THAT DYNAMIC SHAPED HIM DEEPLY. HE LOVED HIS FAMILY, BUT HE ALSO RESENTED THE WAY THAT HOLLYWOOD AND HIS HOME BOTH DEMANDED PIECES OF HIM. SO HE'S JUST A COMMODITY.

[EMILIO]: HE WAS JUST USED TO IT.

[SERGIO]: HE'S A WORKHORSE. AND JUST KIND OF KEPT GOING. BUT I GOT A GOOD STORY FROM HIS LONGTIME FRIEND, PETER BOGDANOVICH. HE WROTE AN ARTICLE FOR ESQUIRE AFTER HIS DEATH. HE DESCRIBED SAL AS A BEAUTIFUL LITTLE BOY RIDING THE SUBWAY'S HOME ALONE TO THE BRONX. SO THIS IS WHEN HE WAS...

[EMILIO]: DANGEROUS.

[SERGIO]: I MEAN, ONE THAT SOUNDS SO... LIKE, IT'S THIS WEIRD JUXTAPOSITION BECAUSE I'M LIKE, OH, THAT'S A CHILD RIDING THE SUBWAY, WHICH SOUNDS AWFUL, BUT IT ALSO FEELS LIKE A HOLLYWOOD MOVIE. OF A SCRABBY KID MAKING IT IN THE CITY.

[EMILIO]: HE'S GOT A TOOTHPICK IN HIS MOUTH.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I'M PICTURING, LIKE NEWSEYS OR SOMETHING. BUT THAT'S WHAT HE WAS. HE WAS LIKE PERFORMING ON BROADWAY AND THEN HE WAS JUST LIKE RIDE THE TRAIN HOME BY HIMSELF, WHICH IS LIKE BADASS, BUT ALSO HE'S A CHILD.

[EMILIO]: VERY BADASS. I GUESS IF YOU'RE FROM THE BRONX, YOU'RE TOTALLY BUILT DIFFERENT ANYWAYS.

[SERGIO]: THAT'S TRUE. YEAH, I DON'T KNOW. YEAH, AND IT'S LIKE A BRONX, LIKE BRONX ITALIAN FAMILY.

[EMILIO]: YEAH, THAT'S A LOT GOING ON.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, WHOLE EXTRA LEVEL OF TOUGHNESS. SO, OWEN, THIS IS THE STORY THAT PETER WAS TELLING. SAL ALREADY IDOLIZED BIG MOVIE STARS AT THE TIME, AND HE LOVED MOVIES ABOUT GANGSTERS AND COWBOYS, LIKE ALL LITTLE GOOD BOYS GROWING UP IN THE TIME. HE TOOK A PAGE FROM THE ACTOR JOHN GARFIELD, WHO WAS CREDITED AS BEING THE GODFATHER OF METHOD ACTING, WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW.

[EMILIO]: NO, BUT IT'S CRAZY WHEN YOU FIND OUT SOMETHING ABOUT, LIKE, WHO IS, LIKE, THE CATALYST TO SOMETHING THAT SEEMS SO...

[SERGIO]: YEAH. YEAH. I PERSONALLY HAVEN'T SEEN HIM IN A MOVIE, BUT HE WAS A WORKING ACTOR IN 1950S, PLAYED A LOT OF GANGSTERS, A LOT OF COWBOYS, AND I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE SEEN HIS METHOD ACTING. SAL TOOK A PAGE FROM HIS BOOK, AND HE WOULD CARRY AROUND A BLANK PISTOL WHILE RIDING THROUGH THE NEW YORK SUBWAY, WHICH IS, LIKE, SMART, BUT ALSO KIND OF CRAZY. AS A YOUNG CHILD RIDING THE SUBWAY IN NEW YORK. AND THEN PETER TOLD A GREAT STORY ABOUT THAT, THAT ONE TIME IN A DESERTED SUBWAY CAR, A HEAVYSET SWARMING MAN IN HIS MID-30S TRIED TO PICK HIM UP, TRY TO PICK UP SAL, ONLY TO DISCOVER THAT SAL'S BIG INNOCENT BROWN EYES WERE DECEPTIVE. WHEN THE GUY WOULDN'T LEAVE HIM ALONE, SAL PULLED OUT THE BLANK GUN AND MADE THE FELLOW DROP TO HIS KNEES, KEEPING HIM THERE AT BAY UNTIL HIS STOP CAME UP, AND THE TRAIN SLOWED DOWN. AND THEN SAL PULLED THE TRIGGER. HE SAID, QUOTE, JESUS, THE SOUND WAS SO LOUD, IT SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF THE GUY. HE THOUGHT HE WAS DEAD. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM, BUT HE STARTED YELLING. THE DOORS OPENED AND I RAN LIKE HELL. I RAN ALL THE WAY HOME.

[EMILIO]: THAT'S FUCKING AWESOME.

[SERGIO]: I WAS IMAGINING THIS LIKE NINE-YEAR-OLD HOLDING, LIKE BARELY HOLDING A GUN, SCARING A BIG SWARMING MAN.

[EMILIO]: THAT'S FUCKING COOL. WHAT A STORY.

[SERGIO]: YEAH. SO DON'T LET YOUR KIDS RIDE THE SUBWAY.

[EMILIO]: LISTEN, WHAT WAS IT LIKE THE 30S, 40S? IT WAS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TIME.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, NO, IT WAS IN THE 40S.

[EMILIO]: I WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO IF I SAW A KID ON THE TRAIN BY THEMSELVES NOW. AND THEN IF THEY PULLED OUT A FUCKING PISTOL, I'D BE LIKE, OH GOD, OKAY, THIS TRAIN IS YOURS.

[SERGIO]: I WAS LIKE, OH, I'M SORRY. I'LL HELP YOU, YOU GOT IT. YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. GOODBYE.

[EMILIO]: SAL FOUND MORE SUCCESS IN ACTING. BY 15, HE HAD MOVED TO HOLLYWOOD AND BEGAN APPEARING IN MOVIES. A YEAR LATER, HE LANDED THE ROLE OF A LIFETIME, THE ANGSTY ADORING COUNTERPART TO JAMES DEAN AND REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE. HIS CHARACTER, JOHN PLATO CRAWFORD MEETS AND IDOLIZES A NEW FRIEND, JIM STARK, PLAYED BY JAMES DEAN. THE MOVIE ENDS, SPOILER ALERT, WITH PLATO IN A SHOOTOUT WITH THE POLICE AFTER BEING CORNERED BY A GANG. THIS ROLE WAS TO BECOME HIS GREATEST SUCCESS AND HIS HEAVIEST CROSS TO BEAR. HIS PORTRAYAL AS PLATO WOWED AUDIENCES AND EARNED HIM AN OSCAR NOMINATION AT 15. THAT'S LIKE SOME JUDY GARLAND SHIT.

[SERGIO]: THAT'S INCREDIBLE.

[EMILIO]: HOWEVER, IT TYPECASTED HIM SEVERELY. BUT BEHIND THE SPOTLIGHT, SAL HATED THE LABEL OF HOLLYWOOD'S TROUBLE KID. HE ONCE SAID IN AN INTERVIEW, QUOTE, THEY SEE ME AS A BOY WHO NEVER GROWS UP, BUT I'VE BEEN PAYING BILLS AND FIGHTING FOR REAL PARTS FOR YEARS. STUDIOS WANTED NOTHING BUT THE ANGSTY KID, NOT THE COMPLEX ACTOR HE'D BECOME. AND WHEN HE TRIED TO TAKE ON MORE ADULT ROLES, THE DOORS JUST STARTED CLOSING.AND BY THE MID 60S, SAL WAS QUIETLY FIGHTING TO PROVE HE WASN'T A ONENOTE STAR OR A SCANDAL WAITING TO HAPPEN. HIS CAREER TOOK OFF WITH NUMEROUS ROLES WHERE HE PLAYS SOME VERSION OF A JUVENILE DELINQUENT, AND IT EARNED HIM THE NICKNAME THE SWITCHBLADE KID. OTHER DIRECTORS LIKE HIS SWARTHY OLIVE COMPLEXION, BECAUSE IT MADE HIM APPEAR, QUOTE, ETHNICALLY AMBIGUOUS. THIS GAVE THEM THE FREEDOM TO CAST SAL IN ROLES LIKE A NATIVE AMERICAN BOY IN TONKA, A MEXICAN BOY IN GIANT, AND A JEWISH BOY IN EXODUS. THIS WHITEWASHING OF ROLES DID STIR UP SOME CONTROVERSY AT THE TIME, BUT NOT AS BIG AS IT WOULD BE TODAY. I JUST, WHY DOES THIS SHIT HAVE TO FUCKING EVER EXIST?

[SERGIO]: THERE'S SO MUCH HERE.

[EMILIO]: SO MUCH.

[SERGIO]: THEY JUST REFUSE TO HIRE PEOPLE OF COLOR OR PUT HIM IN ANY KIND OF IMPORTANT ROLE, BUT THEY'RE LIKE, HEY, YOU'RE KIND OF DARKER THAN ME.

[EMILIO]: YEAH.

[SERGIO]: LET'S JUST SAY THAT'S IT. YEAH. SO IT'S LIKE IT'S VERY CONTROVERSIAL, BUT IT WAS TOTALLY DONE BACK THEN COMPLETELY.

[EMILIO]: VERY INTENTIONALLY. AND LIKE THEY PUT JUDY GARLAND IN STRAIGHT FUCKING BLACKFACE. LIKE I KNOW IT'S A DIFFERENT TIME, BUT LIKE THAT WAS NEVER FUCKING COOL.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, EXACTLY. BUT IT WAS THE NORM BACK THEN. AND LIKE SAL MINEO, THAT'S WHERE THEY KEPT PUTTING HIM. THAT'S WHERE THEY FELT BECAUSE HE'S LIKE HIS SKIN IS VERY OLIVE, VERY BROWN, IT'S LIKE MY SKIN COLOR, MAYBE EVEN DARKER.

[EMILIO]: HIS ROLE IN EXODUS EARNED HIM ANOTHER NOMINATION. HE ALSO MET A 15-YEAR-OLD, JILL HAWORTH, ON SET. THE TWO YOUNGSTERS FELL MADLY IN LOVE AND THEY BECAME A HOLLYWOOD POWER COUPLE. THEY WERE BEAUTIFUL TOGETHER. IT'S THE CLASSIC OLD HOLLYWOOD GLAMOUR. THEY WERE ENGAGED TO BE MARRIED AT ONE POINT, BUT JILL CALLED IT OFF AFTER SHE FOUND OUT SAL WAS HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH A MAN. HOWEVER, THEY LATER RECONCILED AND REMAINED CLOSE FRIENDS FOR THE REST OF SAL'S LIFE. JILL WAS AN AVID SUPPORTER OF SAL AND QUEER PEOPLE IN GENERAL, SO FUCKING GIVE IT UP FOR JILL.

[SERGIO]: YES, JILL.

[EMILIO]: ALSO, CABARET IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE FUCKING MUSICALS, AND SHE WAS IN CABARET.

[SERGIO]: OKAY. IT WAS LIKE, WAIT, WHAT IS THE CONNECTION? I ACTUALLY HAVE NEVER SEEN JILL HERE WITHIN ANYTHING.

[EMILIO]: SAME. I'M JUST REFERRING TO LIZA MINNELLI'S.

[SERGIO]: CABARET. IT'S JUST LIKE THIS ERA OF HOLLYWOOD HAS NEVER INTERESTED ME, BUT LIKE NOW I'M GETTING INTO IT BECAUSE OF THIS. YEAH, I DON'T KNOW. I HAVE A WHOLE-

[EMILIO]: THE POWER OF TRUE CRIME.

[SERGIO]: THE FIFTIES. SO SAL MINEO WAS GROWING UP. HOLLYWOOD REFUSED TO LET HIM OUT OF THIS MOLD OF PLAYING A JUVENILE DELINQUENT AND HIS MOVIE OFFERS STARTED TO DRY UP. AND THERE WERE ALSO THE ROVING RUMORS ABOUT SAL'S SEXUALITY. BUT SAL, HOWEVER, WAS AND IS A QUEER ICON. HE DID NOT HIDE OR EVADE IT. SAL WAS BISEXUAL. VERY PROUD BISEXUAL. HE ALWAYS SAID IT HIS ENTIRE LIFE. HE WAS ONE OF THE EARLIEST ACTORS TO BE OPENLY QUEER IN HOLLYWOOD IN AN ERA WHERE EVEN RUMORS COULD JUST LIKE END YOUR CAREER, WHICH IS FASCINATING. AND IT WAS ACTUALLY WHY I WAS KIND OF DRAWN TO THIS OF LIKE IN THE FIFTIES, LIKE THAT SOUNDED INSANE TO ME. BUT UNFORTUNATELY, IT SEEMS LIKE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO SAL. HIS CAREER WAS DECLINING IN THOSE TRANSITIONING YEARS, IT WOULD COME FROM LIKE TEENAGER TO ADULT. HE STARTED TAKING ANY ROLE HE COULD IN MOVIES AND TV, AND LATER HE TURNED TO STAGE PRODUCTIONS, PRODUCING, DIRECTING, AND STARRING IN PLAYS. AND ALL THE PLAYS THAT HE DID WERE EXCLUSIVELY QUEER, WHICH IS ALSO AMAZING. AND HE WAS UNAFRAID TO MAKE THOSE RUMORS EXPLICIT. HE WAS LIKE, YEAH, I AM, WHO CARES?

[EMILIO]: YEAH, SO FUCKING WHAT?

[SERGIO]: SO FUCKING WHAT? AND IN 1970, HE MET COURTNEY BURR III, WHO'S ALSO I BELIEVE A NEPO BABY, AND A FELLOW THEATER ACTOR. AND COURTNEY WAS ENGAGED TO BE MARRIED TO A WOMAN AT THE TIME. AND THE WAY THAT HE TELLS IT IS THAT HE HAD BEEN WITH MEN BEFORE, BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL SAL THAT HE THOUGHT, QUOTE, OH MY GOD, I CAN ACTUALLY FALL IN LOVE WITH A MAN, AND THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF IT.

[EMILIO]: OH, THAT'S SO BEAUTIFUL.

[SERGIO]: LET ME KNOW. AND LIKE SAL AND COURTNEY WERE TOGETHER FOR SIX YEARS, AND THEY MAKE A BEAUTIFUL COUPLE. YEAH, SO IT WAS COURTNEY WITH THE BLONDE HAIR AND LIKE REALLY FAIR SKIN TO THE CONSCIOUS OF LIKE SAL'S DARKER FEATURES. THERE'S, THEY'RE BEAUTIFUL. THEIR FRIEND SAID THAT THEY WERE INSEPARABLE, EQUAL PARTS CREATIVE PARTNERS AND SOULMATES, WHICH IS LIKE, WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR? YEAH. BUT THEY ALSO NAVIGATED THE FEAR OF BEING FOUND OUT, OF BEING TOO PUBLIC. LIKE ONE, SAL WAS LIKE, I AM BISEXUAL. COURTNEY WAS VERY MUCH IN THE CLOSET, ESPECIALLY AFTER HE LIKE CANCELED HIS WEDDING TO BE WITH SAL. SO…

[EMILIO]: WHAT A POWER MOVE. GOOD FOR FUCKING SAL AND COURTNEY.

[SERGIO]: IT'S LIKE, I'M GLAD YOU FIGURED THIS OUT ABOUT YOURSELF.AND YOU DIDN'T MARRY A WOMAN ANYWAYS. LIKE SURE, IT'S HORRIBLE AT THE TIME, BUT IT'S WORSE IF YOU'RE JUST MARRYING HER AND THEN.

[EMILIO]: GOD, MARRYING A WOMAN IN GENERAL, STRAIGHT OR GAY, IT JUST SOUNDS FUCKING HORRIBLE. SORRY ABOUT IT.

[SERGIO]: TERRIBLE. NO, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE. WELL, NO. OH, DAMN, I DIDN'T WANT TO BRING THIS UP, BUT I'M GOING TO.

[EMILIO]: OKAY. THAT'S OUR SHOW. FUCK IT.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, NO, BECAUSE IT FITS THIS THING, BECAUSE HE WAS ACCUSED OF THIS. COURTNEY HAD IT. LAVENDER MARRIAGES. THIS TERM HAS BEEN COMING UP A LOT LATELY. I THINK LAVENDER MARRIAGES WERE A NECESSARY AND BEAUTIFUL THING. BUT IT'S BEING CO-OPTED RIGHT NOW, WHICH I DON'T HATE. BUT I THINK WITH MOST THINGS THAT ARE CO-OPTED, YOU NEED TO RESPECT THE HISTORY THAT COMES WITH IT. BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE CALLING LAVENDER MARRIAGES WHEN TWO SUPER QUEER PEOPLE ARE MARRYING EACH OTHER, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT A LAVENDER MARRIAGE WAS. OR TWO FRIENDS WHO MARRY EACH OTHER, WHICH IS CLOSE, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT A LAVENDER MARRIAGE WAS. THE LAVENDER MARRIAGE WAS TWO QUEER PEOPLE WHO MARRIED EACH OTHER TO HIDE THEIR QUEERNESS FROM THE WORLD. THAT'S THE IMPORTANT KEY THING, AND I WANT PEOPLE TO REMEMBER THAT BECAUSE IT'S NOT ABOUT TWO FRIENDS MARRYING EACH OTHER, IT'S LIKE THEY WERE TRYING TO HIDE FROM THE WORLD, THEY WERE TRYING TO KEEP THEIR JOBS, THEY WERE TRYING TO KEEP THEIR KIDS. THAT WAS THE REASON THEY HAD A LAVENDER MARRIAGE, BECAUSE THEY COULD SAY, I'M MARRIED TO A WOMAN, I AM STRAIGHT, SO YOU CAN'T OSTRACIZE ME AS A QUEER PERSON.

[EMILIO]: THAT BREAKS MY HEART.

[SERGIO]: IT IS, BUT I THINK IT WAS A BEAUTIFUL THING. THAT'S QUEER PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER, COMMUNITY. LESBIAN WOMAN, GAY MAN, THEY'RE LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'RE BEST FRIENDS, LET'S JUST PRETEND TO BE A COUPLE, AND THEN THE WORLD CAN NOT TREAT US LIKE PIECES OF SHIT, AND WE'LL BE HAPPY. BUT YEAH, SO I'M LIKE, I LOVE THAT IT'S BEING CO-OPT. I LOVE THE IDEA THAT LAVENDER MARRIAGE CAN BE TURNED INTO A NICE THING OF, TWO FRIENDS WHO ARE LIVING TOGETHER OR SHARING THEIR LIVES BECAUSE THEY CARE ABOUT EACH OTHER. THAT'S BEAUTIFUL. BUT I JUST LIKE, I DON'T WANT YOUNG PEOPLE OR ANYBODY TO FORGET LIKE, THIS WAS A SURVIVAL TACTIC.

[EMILIO]: IT'S NOT A TREND.

[SERGIO]: LIKE THIS WAS DONE. NO, IT'S NOT A TREND AND IT'S NOT LIKE A HAPPY THING. PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE A LAVENDER MARRIAGE.

[EMILIO]: YEAH, EXACTLY.

[SERGIO]: YOU KNOW, IT WAS LIKE, I EITHER DO THIS OR I'M GONNA GET FIRED FROM MY JOB. I'M GOING TO BE BRANDED A PERVERT OR I'M GONNA LOSE MY KIDS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. LIKE IT WAS ALWAYS A BAD THING. AND THERE'S A WHOLE LIKE LAVENDER SCARE, WHICH IS WHERE THE NAME COMES FROM OF LIKE, PEOPLE WERE GETTING FIRED FROM IMPORTANT JOBS JUST BECAUSE THEY MIGHT BE GAY AND THEY MIGHT BE A THREAT TO SECURITY.

[EMILIO]: SO FUCKED. I THINK IT'S HARD TO OVERSTATE HOW TABOO QUEERNESS WAS IN THIS ERA. EVEN JAMES DEAN, WHO SAL REPORTEDLY SHARED AN INTIMATE FRIENDSHIP WITH, PLAYED THE PRESS WITH CODED LANGUAGE. DEAN ONCE TOLD A JOURNALIST, WHY WOULD I GO THROUGH LIFE WITH ONE HAND TIED BEHIND MY BACK?

[SERGIO]: WHICH I LOVE, BY THE WAY.

[EMILIO]: I KNOW.

[SERGIO]: THAT'S HOW I'VE ALWAYS FELT IN LIFE. SO YES, JAMES.

[EMILIO]: JAMES AND SAL, THE TWO WERE RUMORED TO BE CLOSE, MAYBE MORE THAN CLOSE DURING THE FILMING OF REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE. AND WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S TRUE, NONE OF OUR FUCKING BUSINESS. BUT THEY BOTH CARRIED THE WEIGHT OF BEING OUTSIDERS IN A HOLLYWOOD THAT DIDN'T HAVE SPACE FOR MEN LIKE THEM. AND THAT EVEN FURTHER BREAKS MY FUCKING HEART. LIKE NOW WE KNOW LIKE HOLLYWOOD IS BEING LIKE ALL, WELL, I WOULDN'T SAY ALL ENCOMPASSING, BUT LIKE SO IT'S SO MUCH MORE NORMAL, I GUESS.

[SERGIO]: AND THERE'S LIKE A CHANCE TO BE CELEBRATED FOR BEING QUEER AND HAPPY AND OUT THERE VERSUS, IT WAS LIKE A DEATH SENTENCE BACK THEN.

[EMILIO]: AND NOW I'M GLAD TO SEE LIKE A LOT OF, I WOULDN'T SAY A LOT, A COUPLE, LIKE STRAIGHT MALE ACTORS THAT HAVE COME OUT AND SAID LIKE, NO, I WON'T PLAY THIS ROLE BECAUSE IT'S A GAY CHARACTER. I WANT TO GO TO LIKE A QUEER PERSON.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, I THINK IT'S JUST IN GENERAL, THEY'RE BEING TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. YOU'RE ACTUALLY THINKING OF THESE PEOPLE AS PEOPLE INSTEAD OF LIKE YOU'RE A MISTAKE OR LIKE BAD FOR BUSINESS.

[EMILIO]: RIGHT.

[SERGIO]: NO, I THINK IN GENERAL, THE QUEERNESS THERE HAS CHANGED ESPECIALLY FOR THAT TIME. AND EVEN REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE HAS BEEN LIKE COLLEGE THESIS KIND OF DEAL. THEY SAID IT'S A COMPLETELY QUEER CODED MOVIE, WHERE IT'S LIKE ALL THESE CHARACTERS KIND OF COMING TOGETHER TALKING ABOUT THE FLIGHTINESS OF LIFE, BUT THAT ALL THE MAIN CHARACTERS, SAL, JAMES AND NATALIE, WERE QUEER CHARACTERS WHO JUST BECAME THEIR WEIRD LITTLE TIGHT KNIT FOUND FAMILY. AND I'VE SEEN THE FILM AND I AGREE WITH IT. I THINK IT'S FANTASTIC. I DON'T KNOW, THE MOVIE IS PUSHING THIS ROMANCE BETWEEN JAMES DEEGAN AND NATALIE WOOD, OBVIOUSLY, BUT IT WAS VERY MUCH LIKE TWO FRIENDS WHO LIKE REALLY UNDERSTOOD EACH OTHER. AND I THINK THAT'S WHY IT'S ALWAYS LIKE REALLY QUEER CODED.

[EMILIO]: I LOVE THAT. I WILL HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO WATCH THAT TONIGHT.

[SERGIO]: ALSO, JAMES DEEGAN, LIKE I'M, I ALREADY ORDERED A BIOGRAPHY ON JAMES DEEGAN BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW MORE. LIKE I'VE READ STUFF THAT LIKE HE WASN'T, HE WASN'T LIKE BLATANT ABOUT IT PUBLICLY, BUT HE ALSO WASN'T LIKE HIDING WHAT HE WAS DOING. AND HE WAS VERY MUCH A PERSON OF LIKE, I WILL LIKE, I WILL SLEEP WITH WHOEVER BECAUSE I WANT TO. AND HE REALLY DID. AND IT'S AMAZING. OR EVEN LIKE THERE ARE RUMORS THAT HE WOULD LIKE SLEEP WITH PEOPLE WITH PARTS, OR HE WOULD SLEEP WITH PRODUCERS AND STUFF LIKE THAT. AND I'M LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT? GET IT.

[EMILIO]: WOW.

[SERGIO]: GET IT.

[EMILIO]: IT'S NOW 1976. SAL WAS PLAYING A BISEXUAL BURGLAR IN A COMEDIC PLAY CALLED ‘PS. YOUR CAT IS DEAD.’ ON FEBRUARY 12TH, SAL FINISHED REHEARSAL AND HEADED TO HIS WEST HOLLYWOOD APARTMENT. AT APPROXIMATELY 9:42 P.M. IN THE BACK ALLEY WHERE HE PARKED, HE WAS APPROACHED BY A MAN COMING OUT OF THE SHADOWS. THERE WERE MANY WITNESSES WHO HEARD THE COMMOTION, THE SCREAMS OF A MAN YELLING, QUOTE, OH, MY GOD, SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME. BUT ONLY FOUR OF THOSE WITNESSES ACTUALLY SAW SOMETHING. MONICA MARIN, A NINE YEAR OLD GIRL AND HER MOTHER RUSHED TO LOOK OUT OF THE BACK WINDOWS OF THEIR SECOND FLOOR APARTMENT. A SECURITY GUARD NEARBY HEARD THE SCREAMS AND RUSHED IN THAT DIRECTION. A 17 YEAR OLD WAS WALKING HIS DOG NEAR THE ALLEY WHEN HE HEARD THE SCREAMS. ALL FOUR WITNESSES SAID THEY SAW A MAN RUNNING OUT OF THE ALLEY AND AWAY. THEY EACH DESCRIBED A THIN WHITE MAN WITH BLONDE HAIR BOUNCING IN THE WIND. NO ONE SAW THE ACTUAL ASSAULT. THE SECURITY GUARD AND THE DOG WALKER RUSHED INTO THE ALLEY WHERE THEY FOUND SAL ON THE GROUND AND A HEAVY PUDDLE OF BLOOD PULLING BENEATH HIM FROM A DEEP STAB WOUND TO THE UPPER LEFT CHEST. THEY CALLED THE POLICE AND AN AMBULANCE, BUT IT WAS TOO LATE. SAL WAS DEAD.

[SERGIO]: IT'S SO TRAGIC. I'LL BRING THIS UP LATER, BUT LIKE WHERE HE WAS STABBED, I FEEL IS SIGNIFICANT. I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE MAN THAT WAS CONVICTED FOR HIS MURDER UNTIL I STARTED RESEARCHING THIS CASE AND LIKE THE WHOLE THING JUST KIND OF KEPT TWISTING AND I'M GOING TO GO THROUGH THE OFFICIAL NARRATIVE AND THEN WE CAN DO OUR THING. SO AT THE BEGINNING, THE POLICE HAD NO IMMEDIATE SUSPECTS. THEY OF COURSE INTERVIEWED COURTNEY BURR WHO WAS SAL'S FRIEND, QUOTE, FRIEND. THAT'S WHAT THE POLICE CALLED HIM AT THE TIME. AND IT'S ALWAYS LIKE, OH, IT'S ALWAYS THE HUSBAND, IT'S ALWAYS THE BOYFRIEND. BUT COURTNEY, AND I DID THINK IT WAS COURTNEY BECAUSE I WAS LIKE, OH, YOU ARE ALSO A TALL, BLONDE MAN.

[EMILIO]: YEAH.

[SERGIO]: WHITE MAN. BUT COURTNEY WAS IN NEW YORK AT THE TIME OF SAL'S DEATH. SO HARD ALIBI. AND THEY HAD FORT WITNESSES SAYING THAT THEY SAW A WHITE BLONDE MAN RUNNING AWAY FROM THE CRIME SCENE. ALMOST A YEAR GOES BY WITH NO REAL LEADS AND THE POLICE, DESPERATE TO FIND SOMETHING, PUT OUT A BULLETIN FOR INFORMATION ON A YELLOW CAR THAT ONE OF THE WITNESSES SAYS THEY SAW LEAVING THE AREA THAT NIGHT. AND I WANT TO POINT OUT JUST LIKE HOW VAGUE THAT IS. ONE OF THE WITNESSES SAYS, I SAW A YELLOW CAR DRIVING AWAY. LIKE IT COULD HAVE JUST BEEN DRIVING DOWN THE STREET. LIKE THAT.

[EMILIO]: EXACTLY.

[SERGIO]: YEAH. AFTER THE BULLETIN WENT OUT, A LINCOLN CAR DEALERSHIP IN LOS ANGELES CONTACTED THE POLICE WITH SOME INFORMATION. THEY SAID THAT ON THE SAME DAY THAT SAL WAS MURDERED, THEY LENT OUT A YELLOW CAR TO A CUSTOMER, A MAN NAMED LIONEL RAY RAY WILLIAMS. AND RAY, SO RAY HAD BOUGHT A CAR WITH THIS COMPANY, BUT IT WAS HAVING ENGINE PROBLEMS, SO HE BROUGHT IT IN FOR REPAIRS, AND THE DEALER LENT HIM A RENTAL, WHICH WAS A YELLOW CAR. SO THE POLICE FOLLOWED THIS LEAD. THEY STARTED LOOKING FOR RAY, AND THAT LED THEM TO A COUNTY JAIL IN MICHIGAN, WHERE RAY WAS THERE SERVING A SHORT SENTENCE FOR CHECK FRAUD, AND RAY HAD BEEN A PIZZA DELIVERY DRIVER IN LA AT THE TIME OF SAL'S MURDER, AND HE WAS DRIVING THAT YELLOW CAR THAT THE DEALER HAD LENT HIM. SO THAT'S A FACT.

[EMILIO]: FACTS ARE FACTS. HOWEVER, RAY DID NOT MATCH THE EYEWITNESS' DESCRIPTION. RAY IS ONE, HE'S BLACK, AND HE HAD A LARGE AFRO AND MUSTACHE THEN. POLICE SAID THE ALLEY WAS DARK, AND IT WOULD BE HARD TO TELL IF THE SUSPECT WAS BLACK OR WHITE.

[SERGIO]: TO MY EAR, I HEARD THAT, AND I'M LIKE, OKAY, I NEED TO KNOW EVERYTHING. EVERY WITNESS SAID, WHITE, BLONDE MAN.

[EMILIO]: THEY, OF COURSE, INTERROGATED RAY, AND LATER BROUGHT UP THE CHARGE OF FIRST-DEGREE MURDER OF SAL MINEO. THEY CLAIMED RAY ATTACKED SAL MINEO TO ROB HIM, BUT IT ENDED WITH RAY STABBING SAL. RAY HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHO SAL MINEO WAS. THE TIMELINE THAT POLICE PUT TOGETHER BROUGHT WITH IT NINE OTHER CHARGES OF ARMED ROBBERY. THE POLICE SEARCHED REPORTS IN AND AROUND THE AREA INVOLVING BLACK MEN, INCLUDING THE ROBBERY AT GUNPOINT OF A MAN BY TWO BLACK MEN 25 MINUTES AFTER SAL WAS MURDERED. THEY HAD A TESTIMONY FROM RAY'S WIFE AT THE TIME, TERESA, THAT HE HAD COME HOME THAT NIGHT WITH BLOOD ON HIM. SHE ALLEGEDLY DESCRIBED THE KNIFE RAY HAD BOUGHT EARLIER THAT NIGHT, THAT WEEK. POLICE WENT TO THE SAME STORE, BOUGHT THE SAME KNIFE AND IT WAS A PERFECT MATCH TO THE WEAPON THAT KILLED SAL. RAY DENIED ALL OF IT. HE SAID, HE'S NOT A SAINT, BUT HE'S NO KILLER. RAY WAS FOUND GUILTY OF ALL CHARGES. HE RECEIVED A SENTENCE OF 50 YEARS TO LIFE FOR THE MURDER OF SAL AND NINE ARMED ROBBERIES. WHAT IS THIS GUY? IS HE FUCKING FLASH? HOW IS HE COMMITTING NINE FUCKING ARMED ROBBERIES?

[SERGIO]: OKAY. I WANTED TO KIND OF TALK ON THAT BECAUSE THE POLICE LITERALLY LOOKED AT ROBBERY REPORTS AROUND THE SAME TIME THAT SAL WAS MURDERED. AND THEY'RE LIKE, THAT WAS A BLACK MAN. THAT WAS A BLACK MAN. AND THEY LITERALLY DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO PIN IT ON RAY.

[EMILIO]: IT'S SO FUCKED.

[SERGIO]: IT IS SO FUCKED.

[EMILIO]: THAT'S NOT EVEN TRYING TO DO LIKE GOOD, VIGILANT POLICE WORK WHATSOEVER.

[SERGIO]: NO, BUT IT WAS LIKE POLICE TRYING TO PLACE HIM NEAR THE SCENE OF THE CRIME. THEY SAW A BLACK MAN AND THEY'RE LIKE, OH, THAT'S PROBABLY WAS YOU. THAT'S CLOSE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO HAVE BEEN THERE.

[EMILIO]: LET'S START WITH THE MOST GLARING PROBLEM IN THIS CASE, THE WITNESSES. WE JUST HEARD THEY ALL SAID THEY SAW A WHITE MAN WITH BLONDE HAIR, WHICH IS VERY HARD TO CONFUSE WITH A BLACK MAN WITH AN AFRO. NOW THE NEWS ARTICLES AND TV SEGMENTS ALL REPORTED THE SAME THING. SECOND, THE POLICE THEORY OF MOTIVE. THEY SAID IT WAS A ROBBERY GONE BAD, SAL WAS FOUND WITH MONEY IN HIS JACKET AND NOTHING WAS STOLEN. THEY NEVER FOUND THE MURDER WEAPON, THERE WAS NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE TYING RAY TO THE CRIME, IT WAS ALL CIRCUMSTANTIAL. WE CAN'T EVEN SAY HEARSAY BECAUSE THEY COMPLETELY IGNORED THE WITNESS TESTIMONIES, SO THE SMELL OF BULLSHIT WAS ALL OVER THIS. BUT OF COURSE, WE DUG DEEPER. RAY'S SENTENCE WAS OVERTURNED 12 YEARS LATER. HE HAD HELP FROM A COUSIN OF HIS THAT KNEW THE LAW. THEY ARGUED AGAINST A FAIR TRIAL FOR THE MURDER CHARGE AND THAT THERE WAS NO REAL EVIDENCE TYING HIM TO THAT OR THE NUMEROUS ROBBERIES. RAY WAS PAROLED IN 1990 AFTER SERVING THOSE 12 YEARS.

[SERGIO]: I JUST WANT TO UNDERLINE THAT. THEY THREW OUT HIS ENTIRE CASE BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE. LIKE, MURDER AND NINE DIFFERENT ROBBERIES ARE LIKE, WE CAN'T SAY THAT YOU DID ANY OF THESE, WHICH IS INSANE. AND THAT'S LIKE HOW IT CAME OUT THAT HE WAS LIKE, THAT THE POLICE WERE JUST LITERALLY LOOKING AT ANYTHING INVOLVING A BLACK MAN AND LIKE TRYING TO PIN IT ON HIM.

[EMILIO]: I LOVE THE STORIES WHEN THE FALSELY ACCUSED GET THEIR VINDICATION AND THEY GET RELEASED, BUT CAN YOU IMAGINE 12 FUCKING YEARS FOR SOMETHING YOU ABSOLUTELY DID NOT DO? LIKE, THERE'S NO COMPENSATION. THERE'S NO SORT OF LIKE BACKTRACKING OR ANYTHING THAT WILL EVER MAKE UP FOR THAT.

[SERGIO]: NO, AND LIKE 12 YEARS, I FEEL IS LOW ON THE WRONGFULLY ACCUSED SPECTRA.

[EMILIO]: YEAH.

[SERGIO]: BECAUSE I'VE HEARD PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN IN JAIL FOR LIKE 40 FUCKING YEARS AND DNA CLEARS THEM. THEY NEVER FUCKING DID IT. AND THAT'S HORRIBLE. BUT HE SERVED 12 YEARS. HE STILL HAD THE STIGMA OF 50 YEARS AND A MURDER UNDERNEATH HIS HEAD. SO HIS PAROLE, THE OVERTURN OF HIS SENTENCING BECAME THE FIRST CATALYST. EVERYTHING ELSE REGARDING HIM AND ALL THE CASES AGAINST HIM CAME INTO QUESTION. THE POLICE HAD TESTIMONY. SO CAME INTO QUESTION. SO THESE ARE A FEW THINGS THAT LIKE DIDN'T QUITE ADD UP THAT THEY USED TO CONVICT THEM. SO THE POLICE HAD TESTIMONY FROM A PRISON GUARD SAYING THAT RAY WAS BRAGGING ABOUT KILLING SOME HOLLYWOOD HOT SHOT, WHICH IS NEITHER HERE OR THERE, BUT IT'S A FELLOW WHITE COP AT A PRISON IN ANOTHER STATE SAYING THAT THAT'S WHAT HE SAID. GOD, TAKE THAT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.

[EMILIO]: YES, THE TINIEST PINCH.

[SERGIO]: TINY LITTLE GRAIN OF SALT.

[EMILIO]: THEY HAD TESTIMONY FROM ANOTHER INMATE WHO ALLEGED THAT HE WAS THE GETAWAY DRIVER FOR RAY THAT NIGHT IN THE YELLOW CAR. HOWEVER, THEY HAD OFFERED THAT MAN AN IMMUNITY DEAL AND A REDUCED SENTENCE TO GIVE THIS TESTIMONY.

[SERGIO]: YEAH. SO IMMEDIATELY INTO QUESTION, THEY'RE LIKE, YOU'LL GET OUT OF JAIL AND WE'LL GIVE YOU IMMUNITY FOR THE CRIME THAT WE'RE TELLING YOU TO CONFESS TO. SHE SAYS, INSANE. AND THEN, OKAY, SO THIS TIDBIT, I COULD NOT FIND MORE INFORMATION, BUT I'M DYING TO KNOW MORE AND I HOPE THAT IT COMES OUT SOON. THE TESTIMONY FROM HIS WIFE, BECAUSE THAT ALWAYS STUCK IN MY HEAD. YOU KNOW, THE POLICE SAID THAT SHE CLAIMED RAY CAME HOME THAT NIGHT COVERED IN BLOOD AND THAT SHE SAID THAT RAY HAD BOUGHT A KNIFE EARLIER THAT WEEK. SO THE POLICE INTERROGATED HER. SHE SAID THAT THEY ASKED HER TO DESCRIBE THE KNIFE AND THE POLICE ALLEGEDLY WENT TO THE SAME STORE, FOUND THE KNIFE SHE DESCRIBED THAT MATCHED PERFECTLY TO SAL MINEO'S WOUNDS. I'M GONNA SAVE MY COMMENTS ON THAT FOR OUR SPECULATION CORNER, BUT LIKE THAT'S THE OFFICIAL NARRATIVE. AND SO THIS IS JUST, IT FELT LIKE A THROWAWAY DETAIL IN A LOT OF THE ARTICLES THAT I READ. AND THIS IS WHY I WANT MORE INFORMATION. SO AFTER HIS WIFE GAVE TESTIMONY, SHE WENT HOME AND SHOT HERSELF IN THE HEAD. I WAS LIKE, WHAT? I'M LIKE, HOW IS THERE NOT MORE INFORMATION ON THIS? THERE WAS LITERALLY NO FOLLOW UP.

[EMILIO]: THAT'S NOTHING TO GLAZE OVER.

[SERGIO]: NO, SO APPARENTLY SHE GAVE HER TESTIMONY AND THEN WENT HOME AND SHOT HERSELF IN THE HEAD AND SHE DIDN'T DIE. SHE STILL HAS THE BULLET LODGED IN HER HEAD. AND THEN LATER ON, ONCE IT WENT TO TRIAL, SHE REFUSED TO TESTIFY. SHE CLAIMED SPOUSAL PRIVILEGE.

[EMILIO]: FUCKING GOOD. SO RAY CLAIMS THAT WHEN THEY FIRST CAME TO INTERROGATE HIM IN THE MICHIGAN JAIL, THE POLICE FIRST ASKED IF HE HAD ANY WHITE FRIENDS, WHITE FRIENDS WHO WOULD COMMIT CRIMES LIKE THIS. ON AND ON, SO MANY INCONSISTENCIES AND JUST PLAIN LAPSES IN LOGIC THROUGHOUT THIS CASE.

[SERGIO]: NO, BECAUSE THEY WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT FIT WHAT THE WITNESSES ALREADY SAID.

[EMILIO]: RIGHT.

[SERGIO]: YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE IT WAS A WHITE MAN, SO OBVIOUSLY THIS BLACK MAN MUST HAVE HAD A WHITE FRIEND WHO COMMITTED THE CRIME WITH HIM. LIKE, IT'S JUST SO-

[EMILIO]: THE FUCKERY.

[SERGIO]: STUPID. YEAH, LIKE IT'S SO INFURIATING. AND I BELIEVE HIM, I BELIEVE RAY.

[EMILIO]: YEAH, I DO TOO.

[SERGIO]: NO, AND THEN LIKE I STARTED DIGGING A LITTLE BIT MORE AND I FOUND OUT THAT RAY, BECAUSE HE'S BEEN OUT SINCE 1990, HE RECENTLY PARTNERED WITH A FILMMAKER AND MADE A DOCUMENTARY. WITH THE INTENT OF PROVING HIS INNOCENCE. AND I'M LIKE, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE THIS. THERE'S ALSO A BOOK. HE WROTE AN ENTIRE BOOK OF THE WHOLE THING AND I'M GOING TO READ IT.

[EMILIO]: YEAH, WE GOT TO DO A BOOK CLUB OR LIKE START QUEUING UP BOOKS FOR EVERYONE TO LIKE READ WITH US.

[SERGIO]: I LIKE THAT. THIS COULD BE OUR FIRST ONE.

[EMILIO]: OKAY.

[SERGIO]: OKAY. FIFTY-ONE YEARS TO LIFE IS WHAT IT WAS CALLED. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE WAS CONVICTED OF. FIFTY-ONE YEARS TO LIFE FOR THE MURDER OF SAL MINEO AND NINE ROBBERY. OKAY. SO THE DOCUMENTARY IS CALLED UNSEEN INNOCENCE. AND IT WAS MADE BY A FILMMAKER CALLED, A FILMMAKER NAMED LETITIA MCINTOSH. I THINK SHE MET SAL RANDOMLY OR HEARD ABOUT HIS STORY. SHE REACHED OUT AND JUST LIKE, WE HAVE TO DO IT.

[EMILIO]: THAT ALWAYS EXCITES ME THE MOST.

[SERGIO]: ABSOLUTELY.

[EMILIO]: LIKE WHEN SOMEONE JUST LIKE HEARS A LITTLE SLIP OF IT OR WHATEVER, SEES A LITTLE CLIP AND THEN THEY JUST FUCKING DEEP DIVE INTO IT HARD. AND THEN LIKE THIS WHOLE FUCKING THING IS GOING TO BE REINVIGORATED. SO FUCKING GOOD ON YOU, RAY AND LETITIA.

[SERGIO]: NO, ABSOLUTELY. NO, AND LIKE I LISTENED TO A PODCAST THEY WERE ON RECENTLY TALKING ABOUT IT. AND LIKE THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT IT WAS. LIKE I HEARD THIS STORY THAT SOUNDS INSANE. AND RAY, HE TALKED ABOUT FILMING. HE SAYS, I SHARE MY ACCOUNT OF THE INVESTIGATION, THE TRIAL, THE MEDIA FRENZY THAT PAINTED ME GUILTY LONG BEFORE MY TRIAL EVEN BEGAN. MY STORY IS FULL OF RACIAL BIASES, PROCEDURAL MISSTEPS, AND SYSTEMATIC INJUSTICES THAT CONTRIBUTED TO MY WRONGFUL CONVICTION.

[EMILIO]: MM, BLOODY HELL.

[SERGIO]: I'M LIKE, IT'S NOTHING NEW, IT'S THE SAME OLD STORY, BUT I'M SO HAPPY THAT LIKE SOMEONE HAS TAKEN THIS STORY AND WAS LIKE, LET'S BREAK IT APART. SO YEAH, SO THIS CASE JUST KEPT GETTING JUICIER. A DOCUMENTARY WILL COME OUT, WE'LL MAKE A WHOLE EPISODE ON THAT. IT'S JUST, THERE WAS TOO MUCH SUGGESTING THAT RAY, GUILTY OR INNOCENT, DID NOT GET A FAIR TRIAL. YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GOING TO PASS THE JUDGMENT, THE CONVICTION, I'M LIKE, THIS WAS NOT A FAIR TRIAL, NO MATTER WHAT.

[EMILIO]: NO, NOT AT ALL. BRINGING IT BACK TO POOR SAL, THE INVESTIGATION WAS IMMEDIATELY TAINTED WITH HOMOPHOBIA. OF COURSE. THE POLICE FOUND QUEER MATERIAL IN HIS APARTMENT. THEY IMMEDIATELY ASSUMED IT WAS A LOVER, A MALE SEX WORKER, A DRUG DEALER GONE BAD. AND EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS NO INDICATION THAT SAL HAD ENEMIES OR DID HARD DRUGS VERY MUCH OF THE TIME, THEY THOUGHT OF QUEERNESS AS DEVIANCY. THEY INTERROGATED COURTNEY RELENTLESSLY, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS OUT OF STATE. THEY BARRED COURTNEY FROM ENTERING SAL'S APARTMENT, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS UNDER HIS NAME.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, IT WAS HIS APARTMENT.

[EMILIO]: JUST SHODDY FUCKING WORK ALL AROUND. AND ALSO LIKE MIXING IN THE FUCKING HOMOPHOBIA. LIKE, EXACTLY.

[SERGIO]: THE ONLY REASON COURTNEY COULDN'T GET IN THERE WAS BECAUSE YOU'RE LIKE, OH, YOU'RE HIS FRIEND.

[EMILIO]: OH, MY GOD.

[SERGIO]: IT'S SO MADDENING.

[EMILIO]: THEY DID LET IN SAL'S FAMILY, WHOM HE HAD LITTLE CONTACT WITH. ACCORDING TO COURTNEY, THE FAMILY ARRIVED WITH SOME BIG GUYS FROM NEW YORK. THEY COMBED THROUGH THE APARTMENT AND BURNED COURTNEY'S LETTERS TO SAL IN THE BATHTUB. COURTNEY SAID OF THE INCIDENT, QUOTE, I DIDN'T KNOW THE LAW, BUT IT WAS ALREADY DONE. IT WASN'T LIKE THERE WAS ANYTHING OF GREAT VALUE, BUT ANYTHING THAT THEY THOUGHT WOULD HAVE POINTED TO HIS SEXUALITY, ANY MAGAZINES OR ANYTHING ELSE HE HAD AROUND, THEY BURNED ALL OF THAT. THAT PISSES ME OFF.

[SERGIO]: THAT'S LIKE HIS FAMILY.

[EMILIO]: EXACTLY.

[SERGIO]: HIS FAMILY CAME IN TO TRY AND CLEAN UP THE IMAGE OR WHATEVER. AND COURTNEY WAS LIKE, COURTNEY LOVED HIM AND THEY BURNED ALL THAT SHIT. IT NEVER HAPPENED. PLEASE PRETEND YOU DIDN'T KNOW SAL.

[EMILIO]: POOR COURTNEY. THE ONE THING HE PROBABLY COULD HAVE HELD ON TO FROM SAL, BESIDES THE MEMORIES AND MAYBE AN ITEM OF CLOTHING, THOSE LETTERS, YOU KNOW THEY HAD TO BE SO DEEP AND SO INTIMATE AND A TRUE EXPRESSION.

[SERGIO]: IT'S SO MALICIOUS, IT'S SO MALICIOUS. IT'S MALICIOUS BECAUSE IT'S LIKE THIS IS A GOOD THING. THIS ISN'T A BLACKMAILING LETTER, THIS ISN'T LIKE ANY WAY BAD. IT WAS LIKE A LOVE LETTER AND YOU HAD TO DESTROY IT. COURTNEY, I WILL SAY WHEN I FIRST STARTED THIS, I'M LIKE, OH, HE DID IT. THAT'S HIM. THAT'S THE KILLER.

[EMILIO]: OH, REALLY?

[SERGIO]: I DID BECAUSE THEY SAID THE KILLER WAS A SKINNY BLONDE WHITE MAN.

[EMILIO]: HE FIT THE BILL.

[SERGIO]: WHICH WE'LL GET INTO BECAUSE OUR CORNER IS COMING. BUT THEN I LEARNED HE WASN'T THERE AND THEN COURTNEY LIVED A LONG LIFE AND HE ALWAYS TALKED ABOUT SAL AND THEIR LIFE TOGETHER AND EVERYTHING AND IT'S VERY BEAUTIFUL. BUT YEAH, HE WAS JUST ALWAYS TREATED AS AN OTHER, AS A FOOTNOTE OR EVEN LIKE A DEVIANT AT ONE POINT BECAUSE YOU SAID EARLIER, WHICH I ALWAYS HATE AND IT ALWAYS HAPPENED THEN. AND I FEEL LIKE IT STILL HAPPENS NOW. IF IT'S LIKE A QUEER PERSON DEAD, IT MUST BE SOME QUEER LOVER. IT MUST BE SOME LIKE PROSTITUTE THAT THEY PICKED UP. IT MUST BE A DRUG DEAL GONE BAD BECAUSE ALL DEVIANT QUEER PEOPLE ARE ON DRUGS. LIKE THAT'S THE MENTALITY THAT WAS HAPPENING HERE IN THE 50S OR NO, SO IT'S THE 70S. IN THE 70S, BUT YOU STILL HEAR IT TODAY. LIKE IT'S JUST VERY HARD AND SICKENING. AND I HATE IT.

[EMILIO]: YEP. IT'S IT'S NOT BUILT FOR ALL OF US.

[SERGIO]: WE'RE ALREADY IN IT. WE'RE IN OUR ARMCHAIR SPECULATION ERA. LET ME PUT ON MY HAT. I'M GOING TO MAKE THIS HAT, BY THE WAY. THINK LET'S JUST GET INTO IT. ARMCHAIR SPECULATION BECAUSE WE'RE ALREADY SPECULATING WILDLY. I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW WHY ALL THESE USED LOOSELY IN THIS CASE, BECAUSE JUST TAKING ONE STEP BACK AND LOOKING AT THE FACTS, LIKE IT'S INSANE HOW WRONG THIS IS. IT MAKES ZERO SENSE. AND I'VE READ THE COURT DOCUMENTS OF RAY'S PAROLE HEARING WHERE HIS SENTENCE GOT OVERTURNED. AND IT'S INSANE TO ME THAT 10 DIFFERENT CHARGES GOT DROPPED IN ONE COURT CASE.

[EMILIO]: ONE SWEEP, YEAH.

[SERGIO]: IN ONE SWEEP. AND HE GOT TO BE FREE. I WAS LIKE, THEN THAT SHOULD PROMPT ANYONE TO BE LIKE, OK, SO HE OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T FUCKING DO THIS. AND IT DIDN'T. AND THAT WAS THAT WAS ONE OF MY KEY THINGS FOR THE SPECULATION CORNER IS THAT BECAUSE THEY PINNED IT ON RAY, THE MURDERER GOT AWAY WITH IT. I DON'T THINK RAY DID IT. I THINK IT WAS PROBABLY IT PROBABLY WAS A SAL MINEO LOVER. LIKE SAL HAD A TYPE. HE LOVED WHITE, BLONDE MEN. I THINK IT WAS A LOVER WHO STABBED HIM. AND LIKE I SAID EARLIER, HE WAS STABBED IN THE HEART AND THAT SOUNDED VERY PERSONAL. THAT SOUNDED VERY PASSIONATE TO ME. SO THAT'S WHY I THOUGHT IT WAS PROBABLY LIKE SOMEONE SAL WAS LIKE SEEING OR LIKE MAYBE IT WAS A YOUNG ACTOR IN THE PLAY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT IT WASN'T RAY. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

[EMILIO]: SO YOU'RE COMPLETELY RULING OUT LIKE ROBBERY GONE WRONG, EVEN THOUGH NOTHING FROM HIS PERSON WAS MISSING OR LIKE A HORRIBLE SLIP OF FUCKING FATE.

[SERGIO]: YES, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK ANYTHING IN, I DON'T THINK ANYTHING IN THE DESCRIBED CASE SAYS ROBBERY TO ME. NONE OF IT SAYS ROBBERY TO ME. HE WAS COMING HOME, LIKE THAT'S WHERE HE LIVES. IT WAS THE ALLEY BEHIND HIS APARTMENT BUILDING. ALL HE WAS WAS STABBED AND THE PERSON RAN AWAY. THEY DIDN'T STEAL ANYTHING, THEY DIDN'T TRY AND TAKE HIS CAR. THEY LIKE, IT WAS HIS HOME, SO THIS PERSON KNEW WHERE THEY LIVED. I DON'T BELIEVE IT WAS JUST LIKE RANDOMLY, HE SAW SOMEONE PULLING INTO AN ALLEY, SO THEY'RE LIKE, THAT'S THE PERSON I'M GONNA ROB.

[EMILIO]: IT DOES SOUND VERY PERSONAL.

[SERGIO]: YEAH, I WOULD CONFIDENTLY SPECULATE THAT THIS WAS NOT A ROBBERY GONE BAD. I FEEL LIKE THIS IS VERY PERSONAL.

[EMILIO]: WELL, I HOPE HBO LIKE BRINGS IN THE BIG GUNS AND THEY CAN SPARK A REINVESTIGATION OR, I MEAN, THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN RETRACE LIKE FUCKING ANYTHING AT THIS POINT. THERE WAS VIRTUALLY NO EVIDENCE. NO, AND THAT'S WHAT'S MAKING ME MAD BESIDES THE BODY.

[SERGIO]: THIS PERSON GOT AWAY WITH IT. LIKE I FEEL AT THIS POINT OF THIS, IF THEY'RE EVEN STILL ALIVE, ONE, RIGHT, UNLESS THAT PERSON CONFESSES TO KILLING SAL MINEO, LIKE WE'RE NOT GONNA KNOW, BECAUSE THEY NEVER LOOKED AT ANYBODY ELSE, YOU KNOW, THEY LOOKED AT ALL THE USUAL SUSPECTS AND THEY WERE RULED OUT.

[EMILIO]: DAMN IT.

[SERGIO]: SO I'M LIKE, DID THIS PERSON GET AWAY WITH MURDER?

[EMILIO]: THAT'S FRUSTRATING.

[SERGIO]: IT'S VERY FRUSTRATING.

[EMILIO]: NOW, THE NEXT THING WE WANT TO GET INTO IS THE REBEL CURSE, THAT THE MOVIE REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE WAS CURSED. JAMES DEAN DIED, NATALIE WOOD AND SAL MINEO.

[SERGIO]: THE THREE STARS OF THIS MOVIE.

[EMILIO]: THE THREE FUCKING STARS.

[SERGIO]: THERE'S ONLY THREE, ALL THREE OF THEM.

[EMILIO]: WHAT ARE THE FUCKING CHANCES?

[SERGIO]: NO, AND THEY ALL DIED IN VERY WEIRD WAYS.

[EMILIO]: YEAH.

[SERGIO]: I'VE LISTENED TO YOURS AND BROOKE'S EPISODE OF NATALIE WOOD, BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT NATALIE'S WOOD CASE UNTIL THEN. THANK YOU.

[EMILIO]: YEAH.

[SERGIO]: WONDERFUL.THANK YOU FOR EDUCATING ME ON THAT. WEIRD AS FUCK. ALSO, INJUSTICE, BECAUSE THAT FUCKER ABSOLUTELY KILLED HER. THAT'S MY SPECULATION. IT'S STILL WEARING MY HAT.

[EMILIO]: WAIT, WHICH ONE? WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

[SERGIO]: HER HUSBAND. WHAT WAS HIS NAME?

[EMILIO]: CHRISTOPHER WALKEN?

[SERGIO]: OH, OKAY. NO, THE OTHER ONE.

[EMILIO]: OH MY GOD... ROBERT WAGNER.

[SERGIO]: I'M LIKE 100% CONVINCED YOU FUCKING KILLED HER AND HE GOT AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE HE WAS A FAMOUS WHITE MAN, BUT ALSO LOVE HOW WEIRD THIS CHRISTOPHER WALKEN DETAIL IS IN THERE.

[EMILIO]: IT'S SO FUCKING WEIRD. IT IS BIZARRE, LIKE OF ALL FUCKING PEOPLE.

[SERGIO]: IT'S THIS WEIRD TEMPORAL THING OF LIKE, THIS FEELS SO FAR BACK, BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL ALIVE. THE PEOPLE INVOLVED WERE STILL ALIVE. RAY'S STILL BEING ALIVE WHEN IT FEELS THE 70S WERE SO LONG AGO.

[EMILIO]: BUT THAT CURSE IS... THAT'S FUCKED. I MENTIONED IT IN THE LAST RECORDING, THAT'S SOME FUCKING POLTERGEIST SHIT.

[SERGIO]: ABSOLUTELY IS.

[EMILIO]: WHY IS THIS SUCH A HOLLYWOOD THING?

[SERGIO]: I DON'T KNOW. NO, I'M LIKE, THIS IS A WHOLE FASCINATING THING. YOU EVER HEARD OF THE 27 CLUB?

[EMILIO]: YES. OH, MY GOD.

[SERGIO]: THAT WHOLE THING IS LIKE A WEIRD, ALMOST SUPERNATURAL THING THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF ACTUAL FACTS. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED AT AGE 27 IN HOLLYWOOD. IT'S WEIRD. I JUST THINK IT'S FUNNY THAT THEY SAID THE CURSE AFTER, BECAUSE IT WAS JAMES DEAN FIRST AND THEN NATALIE WOOD, AND THEN SAL MINEO WAY AFTER, AND IT FEELS LIKE A CURSE FROM OUR 2020 PERSPECTIVE. I'M LIKE, OH YEAH, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT EVENTUALLY GOT ALL OF THEM.

[EMILIO]: WHAT ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES? ARE YOU INTO CONSPIRACY THEORIES?

[SERGIO]: YES AND NO. I'M INTO THEM BECAUSE I FIND THEM FASCINATING AND I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE PEOPLE THAT REALLY BELIEVE IN THEM, BUT I DON'T REALLY BELIEVE IN THEM. I'M NOT A BELIEVER, BUT I'M INTO THEM BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW.

[EMILIO]: DO YOU BELIEVE IN 9-11?

[SERGIO]: OKAY, I NEED YOU TO DEFINE THAT ONE. THERE'S A LOT OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES HERE.

[EMILIO]: I JUST WANTED TO SEE YOUR IMMEDIATE REACTION.

[SERGIO]: OKAY. BUT I FOUND SOME WEIRD ONES FOR THIS CASE. MY FAVORITE ONE WAS ABOUT GOVERNMENT ASSASSINATION AND COVER-UP, WHICH IS VERY BIZARRE BECAUSE APPARENTLY SAL MINEO WAS SHOPPING A MOVIE SCRIPT THAT HE HAD ABOUT THE JFK ASSASSINATION SAYING THAT IT WASN'T, WHAT'S HIS NAME? THAT IT WASN'T THE PERSON THAT HE SAID IT WAS.

[EMILIO]: HIS NAME ALWAYS SLIPS MY MIND.

[SERGIO]: I KNOW I KEPT THINKING OF JOHN WILKES BOOTH.

[EMILIO]: ME TOO.

[SERGIO]: BUT THAT'S ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

[EMILIO]: I THINK WE DO THAT BECAUSE IT'S THREE NAMES, SO IT'S LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

[EMILIO]: LEE?

[SERGIO]: YES. YES, THAT'S HIM. SO THE SCRIPT IS ABOUT IT WASN'T LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IT WAS HIS OTHER PERSON. AND THE CONSPIRACY IS THAT HE WOULDN'T DROP IT, SO THE GOVERNMENT KILLED HIM SO THAT HE COULDN'T MAKE THIS MOVIE.

[EMILIO]: THAT'S INSANE.

[SERGIO]: BUT I LOVE IT. WHEN I READ THAT THEORY, THEY BROUGHT UP THAT SAL WAS DOING SOME SORT OF COWBOY MOVIE AT THE TIME THAT JFK WAS SHOT. HE WAS DOING A SCENE WHERE SOMEONE SHOT HIM IN THE HEAD AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. SO THEY SAID LIKE, OH, SAL HAD THIS WEIRD CONNECTION TO JFK BECAUSE HE'S LIKE, OH, I WAS GETTING SHOT AT THE SAME TIME THAT LIKE JFK WAS GETTING SHOT, AND THAT'S WHY HE WAS OBSESSED WITH IT. SO IT'S LIKE, WHAT ARE WEIRD DETAILS THAT PEOPLE BROUGHT INTO THIS CONSPIRACY THEORY? BUT I DON'T KNOW.

[EMILIO]: I THINK THEY'RE REACHING, YOUR HONOR.

[SERGIO]: I THINK IT'S A LITTLE FAR-FETCHED.

[EMILIO]: NEXT, ANOTHER CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT WE ARE GOING TO POSIT IS THAT A POWERFUL, CLOSETED ELITE HAD HIM KILLED.

[SERGIO]: I MEAN, WHICH I FEEL IS MORE PLAUSIBLE THAN THE JFK ANGLE, ESPECIALLY FOR THE TIME OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, THEY FELT THREATENED THAT SAL WAS GOING TO EXPOSE THEM. THAT'S HAPPENED SO MUCH. IT'S CALLED, LIKE, THERE'S A TERM FOR IT, GAY PANIC. IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOU HAVE TO DISAPPEAR. LIKE, I CAN'T HAVE YOU SAYING THOSE THINGS, SO WE'RE GOING TO GET RID OF YOU.

[EMILIO]: DO YOU THINK IT COULD HAVE BEEN MAYBE A MOVIE EXECUTIVE?

[SERGIO]: I MEAN, IN THIS THEORY, I WOULD THINK SO, THAT IT WAS LIKE EITHER SOMEONE LIKE REALLY HIGH UP, LIKE A BIG MOVIE EXECUTIVE, A BIG, POWERFUL PERSON OR LIKE, OR AN A-LIST CELEBRITY AT THE TIME. BECAUSE LIKE, IMAGE WAS EVERYTHING AT THIS TIME. LIKE, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN HOOKING UP WITH ONE OF THE BIGGEST ACTORS OF THE 1970S, AND THAT'S THE PERSON WAS LIKE, I CAN'T HAVE THIS GETTING OUT.

[EMILIO]: I HATE HOW OPEN-ENDED THIS IS. THIS THING NEVER SATISFIES ME.

[SERGIO]: NO, AND IT'S SO INFURIATING BECAUSE THERE IS A CONVICTED KILLER, BUT WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT'S HIM.

[EMILIO]: NO.

[SERGIO]: SO, THERE WAS A LOT OF LIKE, CRAZY RUMORS FLYING AROUND. THAT WAS THE BIGGEST ONE. THAT LIKE, SOMEBODY, SOME ELITE HIGH UP WAS LIKE, I CAN'T HAVE THIS GETTING OUT, SO THEY HAD HIM KILLED. THERE WAS THIS CRAZY STORY THAT HE, AND ANOTHER LIKE, SEMI B LIST ACTOR HAD A SEX TAPE ON A FAMOUS ACTRESS AND THEY WERE LIKE BLACKMAILING HER, SO THEY HAD HIM KILLED.

[EMILIO]: OH, I DON'T LIKE THAT.

[SERGIO]: I MEAN, THAT JUST, IT SOUNDS VERY SHADY AND VERY UGLY.

[EMILIO]: YEAH.

[SERGIO]: BUT THAT WAS THE THING THAT HE LIKE, THAT SAL MINEO NEEDED MONEY BECAUSE HIS CAREER WAS LIKE NOT GOING WELL. SO HE HAD THIS VIDEO OF, I THINK EITHER HIM OR THE FRIEND HAVING SEX WITH THIS FAMOUS ACTRESS AND THEY WERE BLACKMAILING HER WITH IT. AND THE REASON THAT THAT THEORY GOT SOME TRACTION WAS BECAUSE THE FRIEND THAT THEY SAID HELPED HIM ON THIS ALSO DIED IN A WEIRD MYSTERIOUS WAY A FEW YEARS AFTER SAL MINEO. SO THAT WAS THE IDEA THAT LIKE, OH, THEY WERE BOTH KILLED FOR THIS. BUT I DON'T KNOW.

[EMILIO]: WELL, THAT WAS A GREAT CASE. I, LIKE YOU SAID, I DON'T THINK WE'LL EVER HAVE THIS SOLVED. I DON'T THINK WE'LL EVER FIND OUT. I DON'T SEE A DEATHBED CONFESSION COMING OUT OF THIS.

[SERGIO]: NO. SAL MINEO DIED AT AGE 37. HIS KILLER MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH MURDER. BUT HE IS REMEMBERED TODAY AS A HEARTTHROB STANDING SIDE BY SIDE WITH JAMES DEAN AND A PIONEERING QUEER PERSON WHO DARED TO LIVE UNAPOLOGETICALLY OF WHO HE WAS.

[EMILIO]: MY GOD. POOR SAL. POOR COURTNEY.

[SERGIO]: THEY WERE BOLD AND THEY WERE PUNISHED FOR BEING BOLD. IT'S NOT RIGHT.

[EMILIO]: LIKE WHITNEY HOUSTON SAID, IT'S NOT RIGHT, IT'S NOT OKAY. NO, SHE SAID IT'S NOT RIGHT, BUT IT'S OKAY. THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID.

[SERGIO]: SO THAT IS THE STORY OF SAL MINEO. STILL VERY OPEN-ENDED. SAL'S STORY IS ONE OF COURAGE, COMPLEXITY, AND TRAGEDY. A BOY WHO GREW UP TOO FAST, A MAN WHO FOUGHT TO LIVE AUTHENTICALLY IN HIS TIME WHEN THAT COULD DESTROY YOU. HE REFUSED TO CHANGE HIS NAME, REFUSED TO CHANGE HIS IDENTITY AND THE TRUTH OF WHO HE WAS, EVEN WHEN IT COST HIM EVERYTHING.

[EMILIO]: IT'S CLEARLY A TRAGIC STORY, BUT IT'S ALSO DEFIANT, A REMINDER TO ALL OF US THAT LIVING HONESTLY IN A WORLD BUILT ON SECRETS CAN BE REVOLUTIONARY.

[SERGIO]: WE MAY NEVER KNOW WHO KILLED HIM, BUT WE DO KNOW THIS. SAL MINEO REFUSED TO DISAPPEAR QUIETLY.

[EMILIO]: NEXT WEEK, WE'RE LOOKING INTO THE DISAPPEARANCE OF REBECCA BEARD. SHE WAS A YOUNG MOTHER FROM FREEPORT, TEXAS WHO WENT MISSING AFTER A NIGHT OUT WITH FRIENDS. THERE HAS BEEN NO BODY, NO ARREST, NOTHING BUT JUST QUESTIONS THAT WON'T GO AWAY EVEN 39 YEARS LATER.

[SERGIO]: SO WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO REBECCA BEARD? WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE NOBODY WANTED TO FIND OUT?

[EMILIO]: WE'RE GOING TO FUCKING DIVE INTO IT AND I CAN'T WAIT. PLEASE FOLLOW US ON SOCIALS AT YOUR NEXT POD. WE'RE ON EVERYTHING. PLEASE RATE, REVIEW AND SUBSCRIBE WHEREVER YOU'RE LISTENING.

[SERGIO]: ALL RIGHT. WELL, THANK YOU TO EVERYBODY FOR LISTENING TO YOUR NEXT PODCAST. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE OR YOU'RE NEXT.

[EMILIO]: LATER, NEXTIES. BYE GUYS. BYE Y'ALL.

[SERGIO]: OH, YEAH.

<< BLOOPERS >>

[SERGIO]: NO, I REMEMBER LIKE RIGHT AFTER MY BREAKUP, EVERY TIME THE FULL MOON, I DIDN'T REALIZE THIS, BUT I WOULD START FEELING LIKE REALLY, I WOULD START FEELING LIKE REALLY NEEDY, LIKE SAD AND LONELY. AND EVERY TIME IT WAS THE FUCKING FULL MOON.

[EMILIO]: NO, THAT'S WHEN YOU PUT YOUR PHONE IN THE FREEZER AND YOU JUST LEAVE IT FOR LIKE THREE DAYS.

[SERGIO]: BRING IT BACK. BRING IT BACK.

[EMILIO]: IT'S THE COFFEE AND THE ENERGY DRINKS AFTER 4 P.M.

[EMILIO]: THAT'S WHAT IT IS.

[SERGIO]: IT REALLY IS.